This podcast talks the future of carbon markets and how it is set to evolve with the incoming regulations and technology. The podcast will also focus on Bezero's work in the carbon market landscape and existing whitespaces for entrepreneurs. The transcript of the episode can be accessed here:- https://avaana.simplecast.com/episodes/future-of-carbon-markets
[00:00:00] Saksham Mittal: Hi, welcome to another episode of the Avaana climate Corner Podcast. This is Saksham from the investment Team at Avaana Capital. For this episode, we have Ronan carr, who is the Chief Research Officer at Bezero Carbon. Ronan leads the analytical and content team for BeZero, which is the leading provider of ratings and information products for environmental assets. Prior to Bezero, he has worked as an equity strategist at Bank of America Merrill Lynch and Morgan Stanley.
We will discuss about future of carbon markets and how it is set to evolve with the incoming regulations and technology. The podcast will also focus on Bezero's work in the carbon markets landscape, and existing whitespaces for entrepreneurs.
With this, I welcome Ronan. Hi Ronan. Pleasure to have you on the podcast. We really appreciate you taking the time out from your schedule.
[00:00:48] Ronan Carr: Hi Saksham, thanks so much. Delighted to be with you today.
[00:00:52] Saksham Mittal: My pleasure, Ronan. To begin with it'll be great to understand from you the role of carbon markets in the world, and how are you seeing them evolve?[00:01:00]
[00:01:01] Ronan Carr: Yeah, we think carbon markets have an important role to play in the net zero transition. They're not the only, or maybe even the most important aspect, but they do have an important role to play because we know that, and this is also what the IP C say that by 2050, even if we meet all of the decarbonization targets that that have been set, that there will still.
An element of residual emissions that, will need to be met by increasing the carrying capacity of the planet by, generating effectively carbon removals. And so to build towards that target of 10 gigatons by 2050, we do need to scale up and construct the market infrastructure.
To facilitate that. And the vcm, the volunteer carbon markets is the kind of starting point for that, which today is still relatively small relative. But it does provide the, the structure to potentially do that. And, we think now is the time, the interest in the market, both on the supply and the demand side is really honing up. There's lots of innovation and [00:02:00] and new entrants and new ideas coming into the market. Ratings is one of those, but there's many others too. And we think it's important to, to build this market to address, some of the challenges the market faces as we build towards the net zero transition target and, hopefully get to a market that can deliver 10 gigatons of removals by 2050.
[00:02:19] Saksham Mittal: That is super helpful. I think that's a good gist. What do you feel like, given the different protocols that have been there?
There was a Kyoto Protocol then we had the Paris Agreement and the final cumulation of everything went into Cop 26. So how has that helped carbon markets evolve according to you, and why is this the right time for carbon markets to scale rapidly?
[00:02:41] Ronan Carr: Yeah, so the, the carbon markets to think about it are effectively a mechanism to trade units. And to put a price on units of either carbon emissions or carbon reductions or removals. And carbon markets divided into effectively compliance markets, which are the more regulated markets where typically your [00:03:00] trading allowances, which really are permits to pollute.
And that's what we have in the EU Emissions Trading Scheme and other cap and trade schemes. And those are really trying to put limits on carbon emissions and using those market mechanisms to incentivize that. On the other hand, the voluntary carbon markets are really a way to trade units being a ton of carbon dioxide equivalent, either avoided or removed.
And as the name suggests, that's a voluntary market. So nobody in most cases is forcing the end buyers to, to operate in that market. The longer term trajectory is that market is likely to have to scale up. We may see some convergence between compliance and what's called compliance and voluntary markets.
And we see already in markets like California that, offsets can be used to deliver a portion of the permits in their cap and trade scheme. And we see other markets like Singapore and South Korea that are looking at that model and that may be a model that, that grows over time.
I think more generally the markets are taking off because we're now shifting over the past few years [00:04:00] from an era of, I would call it, climate awareness to climate action. And that's being driven by, I think all, different aspects of society. Consumers are more demanding. The products they buy are, net zero aligned or carbon neutral.
Investors are definitely focused on this. If you look at the rise of ESG and particular within E S G, a focus on climate metrics and corporates themselves are reacting to this. And so I think the more progressive corporates recognize that even if it's not a regulatory requirement, It is a requirement from their investors, their consumers, their employees and potentially a regulatory requirement tomorrow.
So I think that's why we're seeing this, growth right now in, in carbon markets. And I think that's why they'll continue to play an important role.
[00:04:48] Saksham Mittal: That is interesting and I think given the indexes are blown off in terms of, the growth and the interest that VCM has seen just after COP 26, I believe a lot of corporates are now, buying huge [00:05:00] amounts of carbon credits from VCM itself. So how do you see different schemes like cap and trades, vcm, compliance carbon markets and other different local schemes coexist?
[00:05:10] Ronan Carr: As I described before the compliance markets, typically you're looking at the emissions that companies produce and trying to, create a mechanism to force those emissions to be reduced over time. And so really you're trading their own allowance, a permit to pollute. The carbon markets, the voluntary carbon markets are focused on mechanisms that
reduce emissions or that remove carbon from the atmosphere. But the convergence where we're starting to see is that, carbon offset credits effectively can be deliverable against either carbon taxes or the permits in the allow in the allowance markets. And that model, I think is growing in traction.
As I mentioned, we see it in, in several markets . With the Paris agreement and with the UN negotiations focused on, implementing some of the elements within that, particularly around Article six, which creates scope for new markets of [00:06:00] sovereign carbon credits and sovereign sponsored carbon credits, there will be increasingly a link between carbon markets and, country level nationally determined contributions and commitments and that in turn is likely to also support some of this convergence. So I think the markets will over time converge. And the voluntary within the VCM may become more and more of a misnomer as different stakeholders demand that the corporate sector operate in this space and eventually potentially becomes regulated or quasi regulated.
[00:06:31] Saksham Mittal: Interesting. And as you said that things will become more and more regulated as time progresses, if you could just shed some more light on how does regulation effects the VCM and different parameters of it like pricing, the ease of access of buying credits, the ease of issuance. So how will that change as regulation kicks in into the voluntary carbon markets?
[00:06:54] Ronan Carr: Yeah, today it's an unregulated market. However, I think there's [00:07:00] definitely regulatory interest in the space from a financial perspective. The CFTC in the US or IOSCO a global regulatory body for securities regulators is interested in the voluntary carbon markets and as has been consulting and may potentially move into the space, particularly with growth and derivatives and, other traded elements, linked to voluntary carbon markets.
So I think some aspects of regulation are coming down the track. Also from a corporate perspective, we see more and more focused on, raising standards of corporate reporting on climate. We see from t he SEC in the US but also globally, the International Sustainability Standards Board and in the EU also looking to impose greater rules on climate reporting. And, that will force companies to be more open in what they're doing in both, in broader climate reporting, but also specifically on what they're doing in terms of compensation and their use of carbon offsets. And so regulations in some forms is, I don't say inevitable but it seems very possible.
We at [00:08:00] Bezero, we're currently unregulated business, but we operate with the mindset that we should use standards that are equivalent to regulated markets. And that's what we do in terms of our governance in terms of our operating procedure. And in terms of the transparency we embody in our documentation, all of our ratings committees are minute d all of our technical documents are available in the public domain and our methodologies.
And that's because we believe as a rating agency we should operate with the same standards of governance that rating agencies in the credit markets operate with. But it also means that we're, ready if regulation comes into this.
[00:08:37] Saksham Mittal: Given you are trying to, create a kind of standardized rating but also there are different stakeholders apart from you in the whole value chain, right. So there are different project developers. There are validators organizations who are verifying the whole project.
Then you have your registries where the issuance is happening your Verras, gold standards of the world. So how do you see a standardization happening across these [00:09:00] different stakeholders and how are you pushing towards that consistency. That will be my next question.
[00:09:06] Ronan Carr: Yeah, sure. So there's an ecosystem of players in the market and we're not looking to disintermediate any of those existing players, right? So the standards bodies, the accreditors. They do a great job. They are needed to create methodologies and to find the rules under which carbon credits can be issued.
However, our innovation and our contribution is to acknowledge that, once a credit has been issued there is a spectrum of outcomes or there's a spectrum of risks at play. And what we do with the Bezero carbon rating is try to answer the question of what is the likelihood of that accredit once it's been issued can truly deliver on the promise it's made, which is to either avoid or store a ton of CO2 equivalent. And that means we're trying to move the market away from what historically has been a very binary mindset or perspective where, either co credits are issued or they're not[00:10:00] or more, more generally people view credits as other good or bad.
Rather what we're saying is there's a range of outcomes and we need to move the market towards using the language of risk. And so some credits, have higher risks associated with, let's say their additionality or how permanent they are. Other credits may have lower risks and by using the rating, which, provides a view and opinion on those risks it allows all stakeholders in the market to take better decisions to have a stronger view on the level of risk and potentially therefore the value associated with different types of credits. And that's of use to the suppliers of credits. It's also used to the buyers of credits and all of the investors and intermediaries along the way as well.
[00:10:43] Saksham Mittal: That's very interesting. I think this is a good segue to, know more about what you're doing at Bezero and how Bezero is, disrupting the whole market in terms of creating a unified rating system for projects. So maybe we just throw some light on, your work and how is it evolving over time?[00:11:00]
[00:11:00] Ronan Carr: Sure. The core of our offering today is the Bezero carbon rating, which importantly is a fungible tool. So by that our rating can be used to assess the carbon efficacy and the quality of credits in any sector, in any in any part of the world. We do have some eligibility criteria, but those are really Minimum standards of transparency and reporting and also with some independent oversight and an audit process.
But aside from that, it's a tool that can be used to assess any carbon credit in the world. And if we look at other asset classes, other markets it's typical to have information providers, risk analytics providers. Obviously we have ratings in many parts of the debt market, but we also have, research providers in equities and other asset classes.
And for the voluntary carbon market, for carbon markets to scale and to, reach their potential and be part of the net zero transition they will need this information architecture to build and, we want to be part of that information architecture.[00:12:00] As we look forward, we are developing our offering and today the Bezero Carbon Markets platform is an intelligence and analytics platform built around our ratings.
But, we're adding new features and new analytical tools to the platform all the time. We've recently introduced an issuance risk monitor tool, which is a tool to assess, risk pre issuance because the rating. The risks once a credit has been issued. And that's an important area of focus for many stakeholders in the market.
And it's one, we'll continue to invest in. But, over the medium term, we're also looking at other markets and, related assets if you like to, to the carbon credits themselves around biodiversity, around co-benefits looking at, tech-based carbon removals the tools that might be needed to help scale that market. So we have a lot of growth ambitions and intentions along many of these areas. But ultimately it's about creating an intelligence platform. The analytical tools that we know [00:13:00] our core part of other asset classes, and we think we'll need to be a core part of this asset class if it's to.
[00:13:06] Saksham Mittal: Understood. I think that's really great. Given you are helping different stakeholders in the value chain. So for example from what I came across, I think you have a platform for the end customer to analyze the projects, basis your ratings, right? So you have a three point rating model, which you use to assign the kind of risk to every project, and the customer can accordingly assess and, select any project for his use. So that's one. Then you also have an api platform for different marketplaces to list other ratings of the projects, whatever they have. So on the similar level, and I think you also mentioned about the pre issuance thing that you are trying to now come up with. Are you also helping registries to be bit more proactive and intelligent when they're issuing credits?
[00:13:50] Ronan Carr: As a rating agency, we need to maintain a certain level of independence from, the likes of the registries. However, I think there is a, a natural [00:14:00] interaction. If you look at the accreditation of standards bodies over the years they tend to revise methodologies and, address problems that have invented those methodologies.
And standards tend to improve over time. And we believe that ratings can help to provide feedback into that process because, if in our analysis we highlight that there's a certain cohort of credits that has a higher risk of, from an additionality perspective or from a leakage perspective, let's say, than other comparable credits, then, if as ratings gain traction, we should start to see over time the correlation increasing between credit quality and ratings and credit value and price. And historically that correlation was very low. We're starting to see tentative signs of a relationship emerging but still early days. As that correlation grows, then the incentives for the producers of carbon growth will be to produce higher quality ones and by extension the standards bodies have an incentive and already do great [00:15:00] work in terms of improving their methodologies. The feedback that they get from our analysis and others can feedback into that process. So I would say it's an indirect link rather than a direct link.
[00:15:11] Saksham Mittal: That's interesting to know. Also What do you feel a rating agency like yours will be a single agency that will be used across the world or will local rating agencies emerging in different markets ? What is your take on that?
[00:15:25] Ronan Carr: As I mentioned before our ratings can be issued or can be assigned to any credit anywhere in the world in any sector. And at the, I think so far we've rated about 286 credits across 53 countries and across all, all major sector groups.
So our coverage analytically as global, we also have employees in, in all parts of the world and our customers are also based all around the world. It's true that in the corporate sector, European corporates have been, more say advanced and in this space.
But we are seeing a lot of traction [00:16:00] commercially in the US and in Asia as well. So we're a global company and it's a global market we'll continue to operate in that space. The supply of credits tends to be larger in, funnily enough, outside Europe.
So we there's a large supply of credits from the US but otherwise the larger suppliers are, tend to be in south america parts of Asia and Africa and so Europe is a relatively small part actually of the supply of credits, even if it's important on the demand side.
[00:16:31] Saksham Mittal: Understood. So this brings me to another question you have six parameters over which you. The ratings, right? So additionality, overwriting, non permanance leakage incentives and policy are like the six parameters that you have. So help me understand what's the process of assigning a rating to a project, right? Does it involve manual interventions or is it purely tech driven, given you are a global company, right?
[00:16:54] Ronan Carr: Yeah, so you're right. The Bezero carbon rating is built on an analysis of six risk factors that you've [00:17:00] mentioned there, additionality being the most important, but also risks ran over crediting permanence, leakage policy and perverse incentives. And the analytical process we undertake is a combination of top down analysis where effectively we look at all of the evidence that pertains to those risk factors.
Given the country accreditor is based or or the sub-sector or project type that it's in we know from all of the available research and academic literature and public data sets, we can already know a lot about the potential risks just based on that top down analysis. And we then combine that top down analysis with a bottom up perspective, which is effectively a, a deep due diligence analysis of all of the project documentation.
So all of the project design documents and monitoring reports that are provided by the project typically through the registries and any other evidence that pertains to that particular project, which could be, [00:18:00] local analysis could be, research studies that have been done, that include through the given project.
And really it's the combination of that top down and bottom up perspective, which allows us to undertake the rating. It's a combination of quantitative and qualitative analysis. So we do have a, a big data science team where we, increasingly automate some of our analysis where that's possible.
One of the big challenges in this market is that the data and provision of information is very unstructured and very inconsistently reported. So a lot of our work is in, distilling and processing the data, to make it more standardized. But there's a large qualitative as qualitative aspect as well.
The thing to bear in mind about carbon credits is that, unlike other commodities that where you can physically observe them and deliver the commodity with carbon- it's intangible. It can't be observed, and very often the carbon accounting is based on counterfactual that can never be observed empirically. So it's a [00:19:00] detailed analysis using all of that available information for nature-based projects. Geospatial analytics are an important contribution too.
[00:19:06] Saksham Mittal: That is interesting to know. This also brings me to another question around the concern of buying credits from the voluntary carbon markets is essentially there have been concerns of greenwashing, double counting, et cetera, which has attracted criticism to carbon markets, right? And given what you are building is also kind of, addressing that criticism because let's say if a project is not able to deliver number of credits being issued, right? So how much change have you observed in the environment around this whole criticism and the negativity around carbon markets?
[00:19:38] Ronan Carr: Yeah, no, it's a very it's a good question and very timely given recent media scrutiny to be honest. I think there are a number of, criticisms of carbon markets and but I think it's helpful to disaggregate them a little bit concerns about double counting of credits is, especially historically was very valid.
I do believe that the major registries do address that problem.[00:20:00] And particularly as we move, as we see further innovation with the use of distributed ledgers and blockchain technology, that, confidence in the lack of double or non double counting credits and non double use of credits should become should continue to increase.
In terms of accusations of greenwashing, I think we need to think the problem both from the demand side and the supply side because on the supply side the concern is around the integrity of the carbon credits that have been issued and how effective they are and whether they're really having any impact.
And certainly, the Bezero carbon rating has been created directly to address that question. And so ratings and other analytical tools that assess the integrity of credits, I think will help to raise standards. There's also other regulatory initiatives like the Integrity Council the Core Carbon Principles, which are looking to raise minimum levels of standards which also focus on this issue.
But I think we also need to look at the demand side and how carbon credits are used. So even if you have high quality credits, [00:21:00] if companies are using carbon credits to avoid decarbonize, decarbonizing, There is a problem. And that is the other criticism that carbon credits come under, but that's really about how they're used, not about how good the credits are themselves.
And we need to use other tools effectively to address that problem. And effectively the use of the carbon mitigation hierarchy is what should, underpin any attempt to address this which basically states that companies or any entity should be trying to avoid and reduce emissions first before they, they move to look to compensate.
And there are plenty of good ways that to do this, companies should be reporting on the the extent to which they have an net zero strategy, their progress towards our strategy. Other interim target. And if they do those things then their use of carbon credits, can be seen as legitimate if it's incorporated into that, a credible net zero strategy that's being executed.
And there are also initiatives on that demand side they're looking to help in this place. The Voluntary Carbon Markets [00:22:00] Initiative is looking at this demand side reporting and I think we also see, other initiatives like the SEC climate reporting measurements help in this space.
So I think there's a range of initiatives. The ratings can really help with shining a light on the range of quality from the supply side. And then better corporate reporting ultimately to help on the demand side. And I think the big issue for us or the big theme for us is transparency, right?
If we improve, The levels of disclosure and reporting and transparency from all stakeholders in carbon markets, then that can really help to increase confidence and increase the perceptions of integrity for the market.
[00:22:43] Saksham Mittal: Understood. I think that's very well distribution of different themes that are there within the criticism. And I think given what we are seeing, there are also a lot of tech companies coming up, right? In measurement, reporting verification. And I think these companies will also help in, fool proofing the whole[00:23:00] carbon markets in general. I think that should be another mitigation to this whole problem. Ronan, what do you think about, these MRV companies? These tech companies which are, building near sensing or remote sensing solutions to help with the faster turnaround of the whole project verification and then the ultimate issuance. So what is your view are these companies helpful in terms of evolving the whole space? How are you seeing these MRV companies evolve?
[00:23:25] Ronan Carr: The rise of digital measurement reporting and verification is a big trend. And it's not just startups. We also see the incumbents are focused on this, including the standards bodies. And we can really see technology significantly add to the capability.
If we think about nature-based solutions, inherently there's a high level of uncertainty. When we're, doing carbon stock assessments and advancements in technology can help to reduce those uncertainty levels. But also it can provide for much more timely and more frequent reporting, which I think would really help in scaling the market.
And adding to confidence in the market. And really [00:24:00] it, it feeds into this need for more transparency across the piece. And, digital M R V is it can be used in a wide range of context. A lot of focus on geospatial analytics and new and technologies like radar and lidar and nature-based projects, but also non nature-based projects.
There's a lot of potential to use sensors and and things like industrial carbon credits scenarios the use of mobile phones and to get what larger sample sizes for surveys, for things like hook stove projects. And so it's really helpful. I think ultimately the more data and information that we have to means, We can undertake a more accurate and more informed assessment.
So we're, as a ratings agency, it's MRV is a key input into our analytical processes that we clearly welcome technological advances that will help in that regard. And are actually our chief data scientist is currently a member of gold standards digital MRV working group.
So within the industry, there are a lot of people focus [00:25:00] on this topic.
[00:25:01] Saksham Mittal: That's great to know. And I think when you are also monitoring a project to give it a dynamic rating, you also use some kind of sensing technologies to see what change in the project is happening.
[00:25:11] Ronan Carr: So for nature-based projects, we will look at our we'll do our own independent assessment of the evidence from geospatial data, geospatial analytics and we will use that to corroborate what the project is reporting in terms of its emissions and also the baselines that they've used to to inform their carbon accounts.
And as the quality and the sophistication of geospacial analytics improves then, the ability to do that increases over time. And we're investing a lot in combining that geospatial data with, machine learning type techniques to create more and more advanced understanding of the historical trends, but also to, allow for near realtime monitoring and that's something that we'll be providing on our platform for clients so that they can get alerts when there's been a, potentially an event at a project like a fire or a [00:26:00] forest loss event, for example. So it's a big area of investment for us.
[00:26:04] Saksham Mittal: That's good to know. So this brings me to another question. What are the key challenges that you see with respect to Bezero in the journey ahead? And obviously if you could also throw light on the challenges you faced still now, so I think it would help build the connection better.
[00:26:18] Ronan Carr: Yeah, look, I think the challenge with the carbon market is that you're assessing both a financial instrument so a carbon credit is a financial instrument that can be traded, but it's also an ecological asset and so what's key to the success of Bezero is the kind of mixed skillset we have, people from a really wide range of backgrounds here from the sciences, engineering, technology markets, economics and policy.
I think that's key. I. The other big challenge to developing a ratings product in this market is the inconsistency of reporting and data provision and sometimes the, weaker standards of transparency and so a big part of our mission is to advocate for stronger [00:27:00] standardization of reporting and higher minimum standards of transparency.
That would help us do our job better, but would also really help the market to scale and we think, I think there is a virtuous circle between ratings, driving market behavior and in turn incentivizing better transparency and, creating a rising tide for quality in the market.
So transparency is, I think, is the. Mission for, or related to the key mission for Bezero and it's also been one of the big challenges and one of, one of the areas where we're, one of the obstacles we need to overcome to do our job well. But it's an area where we're looking to contribute all the time.
We've, we recently released a carbon accounting template into the public domain, which, we're advocating, could be a template for the whole industry to standardize reporting and, coming from other asset classes in commodities or equities or debt markets, it can be a surprise that you don't have a standardized reporting template in this market.
And, we're trying to do our bit to push the market in that direction.
[00:27:59] Saksham Mittal: it's [00:28:00] really fascinating and bang on on the transparency bit. This is something with which every marketplace platform is also dealing with who's operating in the carbon credit space because they're also doing the measurement and verification bit of things and selling the credits on their marketplace as well. So they also need to exercise some bit of governance on the transparency bit in terms of being non-biased on what they are measuring and what they are reporting. I think that's a very fair bit. Any interesting white spaces that you've come across in this space that you think this could be a big enough opportunity for entrepreneurs to build for the carbon markets.
[00:28:35] Ronan Carr: Yeah, I think you know this question of building information architecture and the market infrastructure is really the key opportunity in the carbon markets. And, we're doing our bit in that space, but we also see a lot of other innovations in the market things like exchange based trading, structured products, creation of derivatives should all increase the price discovery in the market, which historically has been very poor. It's been, [00:29:00] quite an opaque market. And that's also key element. We're seeing the advent of insurance solutions in the carbon market, which I think is gonna be really important as well in terms of, creating better allocation of risk and, driving the market towards more efficiency.
So yeah, we, I think we see ourselves as part of, a wider ecosystem of solutions that will help this market to scale. We do need them all. We probably need some of the regulatory or industry initiatives that we see as well but we also need these bottom up initiatives that, get us that better information, discovery, price discovery and transparency.
[00:29:34] Saksham Mittal: That's exciting to know. And what do you feel, will be the key levers for driving the growth of the carbon markets according to you?
[00:29:45] Ronan Carr: So I think in last year, the carbon market ,VCM, was worth about two, 2 billion. So still a relatively small market, but estimates vary. But that, but it could be as, as much as 50 billion and more beyond [00:30:00] 2030. And certainly if the market is to help deliver 10 gigatons of removal of 2050 it needs to start to move towards that trajectory of scale. So what will drive us there? I think what's interesting in the last week or so, we've seen the price of carbon on on the emissions trading scheme in Europe move above a hundred dollars. And so it shows that, carbon prices can be a lot higher than they are in the voluntary market.
And, as we get more engagement from the corporate sector into into the carbon markets, whether that's driven by their existing stakeholders, or whether it's driven by regulation or the prospect of regulation whether it's driven by, increased involvement of governments through Article six markets and the mechanisms within the Paris Agreement.
All of these may have a role to play in driving the market adoption and growth. And as we see more, entering the market, then we could start to see prices in voluntary markets start to move higher. And there's a long way to go to get [00:31:00] to that under dollar average price that we see in the European cap and trade scheme.
[00:31:05] Saksham Mittal: There are also difference in prices across different assets, rights, usually nature based solutions, trade for higher than your renewable energy credits or other kind of credits.
So I think we'll also see that typically the nature solutions would go a lot more higher and they also have a lot more potential in terms of the whole mitigation. So I think we will see that growth that you're talking about. We've had a great discussion till now.
So just on the closing bit of things, if you could just share for a few advices for the entrepreneurs in this space.
[00:31:34] Ronan Carr: Yeah, maybe two things. One is, try and practice what you preach. In our case, we've talked a lot about transparency over the past few minutes, and we try to embody that transparency. We provide our headline ratings in the public domain that are available for free on our website.
We also provide all of our technical documents and methodology documents published them in the public domain. And so we try to embody that, that spirit of [00:32:00] transparency. I think the collaboration and partnerships are also important. When you're, trying to build a solution, but with, but also trying to help to build a market.
I think those partnerships are important and they help the market to grow. They've been important to our growth as well. We have partnerships with the likes of ACX and CBL in, in the carbon exchange space and with other intermediaries like Patch and Cloverly. And they help us to drive adoption, but they also help to, provide those partners with tools that, give their users a sense of carbon efficacy and quality.
We're kicking off some work now with Ice- Intercontinental Exchange around building standardized and structured products. And so we, we see that as another way to innovate and push the market forward. We've done joint research with a couple of insurance players in the carbon market.
Again, we see there's a complementarity between insurance solution and risk analytics and ratings. So those partnerships are, I think, are important when you're trying to build a market and provide the tools [00:33:00] for the market to scale.
[00:33:01] Saksham Mittal: I think all these points are very valid. Given the carbon markets are such where different stakeholders are involved, so I think it'll be an ecosystem approach to help scale the whole markets. I think any entrepreneur who is working will need to, think of the different stakeholders that are there and build for the needs of every stakeholder. Yeah, I think Ronan, we have come to the end of the conversation. It was really insightful to hear your thoughts on the carbon markets and the technologies that are emerging. Any last bits if you have else, we'll close up the conversation for now.
[00:33:30] Ronan Carr: Delighted to join you today and do check out our website. You can see our ratings. You can see synopsis of our views. We also published lots of research and insights. So for people who want to learn more about the market to go to bezerocarbon.com.
[00:33:44] Saksham Mittal: Definitely, I think you guys are doing great work in terms of seeding the whole ecosystem and moving the whole ecosystem towards net zero. Thanks a lot for your time, Ronan. We really appreciate your presence and your insights. Thanks.
[00:33:57] Ronan Carr: Pleasure. Thank you very much.